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Moderators: Telperiar, zackrob, scoobydoo1, lildevil13
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| Bonesro |
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  Registered Member #1090 Joined: Fri Jul 10 2009, 04:20PMPosts: 79 | Our campaing and fight for freedom of speech has started. Join us and sign the online petition, hosted by Petitiononline. You all want a change than show it! To: Acclaim Games Inc Freedom of expression is one of the fundamental human rights, proclaimed universally. It is essential for the existence and development of a society, to exercise other human rights and fundamental freedoms. “Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression, this right includes freedom to support their own opinions without interference, freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and without borders”, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 19. Online Forum (Public) Acclaim’s 9Dragons is a place where freedom of expression is dead. Because a great part of 9Dragons players and the majority of veterans, over the years have brought criticism to the publisher, Acclaim, the community manager Historian aka David DeWald, who understand these criticisms as threats (not as a expression of discontent for customers with services offered) makes them virtually disappear into the nothingness of the forum Recycle Bin. It is a dirty game, played for several years. Locking, deleting, moving to trash bin of community topics, without a proper explanation, closing accounts without a warnings system being apply is a practice who threats the development of the players community. Players are harassed for expressing their opinions freely and their accounts are closed if the view expressed is in disagreement with the company policy, even the forum is a public forum and post on the internet. Players are prohibited from free expression of what they think and feel, even if the ideas are framed in the general debate rules, recognized as such worldwide. David DeWald induced over the years to players, psychological pressure using the slogan “who is not with us is against us and must be deposed” and prompting the avatars of the official team to do more alternative accounts and to block players whom posted reviews of opinions otherwise “than his fancied as the justifiable for Acclaim”. Join together with us and advocates for: -Unlocking the freedom of speech on 9Dragons forum; -Re-opening the veterans accounts who have expressed their opinions on the forum and brought; criticism to the publisher, Acclaim, because of non proper customer service; - Stoping the harassment of players who want to show culturally diverse ideas; - Replacing the team of moderators with one able to face the criticism coming from customers and the debates; - Access to a free debate; -Respect for fundamental human rights. ProjectAI authors http://www.petitiononline.com/blogAI20/petition.html Thanks for who will support this petition ! [ Edited Thu Dec 03 2009, 01:29PM ] http://www.youtube.com/user/Bonesro http://projectai.wordpress.com/  | ||
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| lildevil13 |
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lildevil13   Registered Member #265 Joined: Wed Sep 03 2008, 09:41AMPosts: 746 | still going on with acclaim ! some people do have free time for that kind of stuff. what will be next ? a manifestation at acclaim head office ? Don't Hate the player, Hate the Game ! Lost Saga homepage [/link] | ||
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| Satanhas |
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  Registered Member #55 Joined: Thu Jun 26 2008, 11:40AMPosts: 120 | You do have freedom of speech. If you didnt have it this forum would also delete it because acclaim forced it. Most of the mods and acclaim people at the official forum are @rses but why bother with them? Just avoiding the forum is a good way to not be bothered with them. You either part of the problem or part of the solution http://help-littleangelina.com/ | ||
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| Bonesro |
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| Registered Member #1090 Joined: Fri Jul 10 2009, 04:20PMPosts: 79 | lildevil13 wrote ... still going on with acclaim ! some people do have free time for that kind of stuff. what will be next ? a manifestation at acclaim head office ? The Court of Law ! That was 5 min work.... Think about something, when you are a team, you make things more easy, the division of labor  Satanas, you have right, yet, for the community I tried to repost the guides (karma quests, all my videos guides) I did, after Historian deleted 80% of them, and guess what, after 3 h of recharging the forum all over again, they were deleted and no explanation was giving. [ Edited Thu Dec 03 2009, 02:51PM ] http://www.youtube.com/user/Bonesro http://projectai.wordpress.com/ | ||
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| Telperiar |
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   Registered Member #1 Joined: Sun Jun 15 2008, 04:02PMPosts: 527 | Well you miss an important point Bonesro. Acclaim has a domestic authority right on their forum. They cant violate your right of free speech since your free to say your opinion anywhere else. They got a right to act like mean assholes there. Thats the reason why we left Acclaims forums, and started one here with real free speech. Asking them nicely never changed anything, and forcing wont work, its an pretty uneven fight. Game communities never can act like a single being, since they never accept anyone as leader, therefore they cant put pressure. You got guides, walkthrus and unpleasant facts? Stop wasting your time posting them on acclaims forum. Post them here and just link. Pretty much retired from MMO gaming due to vast amounts of work. | ||
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| Bonesro |
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| Registered Member #1090 Joined: Fri Jul 10 2009, 04:20PMPosts: 79 | Telperiar wrote ... Well you miss an important point Bonesro. Acclaim has a domestic authority right on their forum. They cant violate your right of free speech since your free to say your opinion anywhere else. They got a right to act like mean assholes there. Thats the reason why we left Acclaims forums, and started one here with real free speech. Asking them nicely never changed anything, and forcing wont work, its an pretty uneven fight. Game communities never can act like a single being, since they never accept anyone as leader, therefore they cant put pressure. You got guides, walkthrus and unpleasant facts? Stop wasting your time posting them on acclaims forum. Post them here and just link. Thanks Telperiar. Acclaim has a public forum through. It is a long debate, anyway I will follow your advice and post the guides in here. http://www.youtube.com/user/Bonesro http://projectai.wordpress.com/ | ||
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| davidjason64 |
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 Registered Member #451 Joined: Tue Sep 30 2008, 06:50PMPosts: 52 | Bones finally listens to someone about "domestic authority rights"? Good Job Telp! | ||
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| Bonesro |
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| Registered Member #1090 Joined: Fri Jul 10 2009, 04:20PMPosts: 79 | davidjason64 wrote ... Bones finally listens to someone about "domestic authority rights"? Good Job Telp! I need a good 'cutuma'.... Read again my post, as I said it is a long debate. http://www.youtube.com/user/Bonesro http://projectai.wordpress.com/ | ||
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| Telperiar |
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| Registered Member #1 Joined: Sun Jun 15 2008, 04:02PMPosts: 527 | Bonesro wrote ... Acclaim has a public forum through. Bones, Acclaims Forum is NOT a public one, its a private one. Like any owner of a private place, they define the rules. They define who is allowed to be and to speak there. Having a forum default permitting registration and posting does not make it public at all, you still have to follow the rules of the landlord, no matter how stupid they are. If you dont agree to their rules, dont move there. Lets take the "real world" for an example: You may walk into an office of Xe (also known as Blackwater) and call them a bunch of murders and war criminals. They may not be very pleased about, you and may "ask" you to leave. This is not violating your freedom of speech, its just their right of domestic authority, like its yours to deny somebody to enter your home. On the other side, you may write an excellent article about this company, based of facts and inquiries, and publish it in a blog, a newspaper or even hand it out on streets. Thats the meaning of free speech. Pretty much retired from MMO gaming due to vast amounts of work. | ||
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| jibber_jabber |
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 Registered Member #1757 Joined: Fri Dec 04 2009, 05:12AMPosts: 1 | correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say back on the 5th of Novenber that since your campaing fell thru that you were going to quit this childish tirade against 9D?? http://projectai.wordpress.com/2009/11/09/demonstration-against-acclaim-was-a-fail/ seems that you really can't even keep your word in your own blogs...so explain to me along with the rest of us, why we should even bother reading let alone follow anything else that you try to do against Acclaim?? You stated before that you left (and lied) and you had "proof" of you deleting your chars, and guess what you were still in the game You made your huge protest in the forums and your blog and that you were done, yet you still post on an almost daily basis about a game that you claim you can't stand Then you pull this drama act on the 5th, and GUESS WHAT...you are still here. Seems to me that you are all puff and fluff that you can't even back up your own promisees [ Edited Fri Dec 04 2009, 05:20AM ] | ||
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| Bonesro |
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| Registered Member #1090 Joined: Fri Jul 10 2009, 04:20PMPosts: 79 | jibber_jabber wrote ... correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say back on the 5th of Novenber that since your campaing fell thru that you were going to quit this childish tirade against 9D?? http://projectai.wordpress.com/2009/11/09/demonstration-against-acclaim-was-a-fail/ seems that you really can't even keep your word in your own blogs...so explain to me along with the rest of us, why we should even bother reading let alone follow anything else that you try to do against Acclaim?? You stated before that you left (and lied) and you had "proof" of you deleting your chars, and guess what you were still in the game You made your huge protest in the forums and your blog and that you were done, yet you still post on an almost daily basis about a game that you claim you can't stand Then you pull this drama act on the 5th, and GUESS WHAT...you are still here. Seems to me that you are all puff and fluff that you can't even back up your own promisees You confuse the authors...that was Legend, not me. Ask the GMs how my characters are back. Now apologies. jibber_jabber, you register and post just to say me that ? Who is the kid ? Who is someone who can't stand what I do and have a problem ? I will not quit and I will go further. Telpier, as I said, even it is your property(House) you can’t do everything you want. For example, if the volume of the music is to high, the neighbours can call the Police and complaint for phonic pollution and you will be punished by law. The same case is with freedom of speech. In short time, companies has weak points. In your describe situation, I would go with my lawyer [ Edited Fri Dec 04 2009, 09:46AM ] http://www.youtube.com/user/Bonesro http://projectai.wordpress.com/ | ||
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| Telperiar |
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| Registered Member #1 Joined: Sun Jun 15 2008, 04:02PMPosts: 527 | Bonesro wrote ... Telpier, as I said, even it is your property(House) you can’t do everything you want. For example, if the volume of the music is to high, the neighbours can call the Police and complaint for phonic pollution and you will be punished by law. The same case is with freedom of speech. In short time, companies has weak points. In your describe situation, I would go with my lawyer Your still confusing the positions. Its not like Acclaim turning music too loud, violating your personal rights, giving you the right to defeat them calling the police. Its like you going to Acclaims "home", turning the music too loud for their taste, and giving them the right to turn Music off and even remove you. In my example even an army of lawyers wont allow you to stay in their office, it only convince them to remove you more "friendly" than when being alone. Freedom of speech does NOT mean your allowed to say anything to anyone anywhere, even the ancient greek knew about the natural limitations of this right. [ Edited Fri Dec 04 2009, 01:17PM ] Pretty much retired from MMO gaming due to vast amounts of work. | ||
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| Bonesro |
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| Registered Member #1090 Joined: Fri Jul 10 2009, 04:20PMPosts: 79 | Telperiar wrote ... Bonesro wrote ... Telpier, as I said, even it is your property(House) you can’t do everything you want. For example, if the volume of the music is to high, the neighbours can call the Police and complaint for phonic pollution and you will be punished by law. The same case is with freedom of speech. In short time, companies has weak points. In your describe situation, I would go with my lawyer Your still confusing the positions. Its not like Acclaim turning music too loud, violating your personal rights, giving you the right to defeat them calling the police. Its like you going to Acclaims "home", turning the music too loud for their taste, and giving them the right to turn Music off and even remove you. In my example even an army of lawyers wont allow you to stay in their office, it only convince them to remove you more "friendly" than when being alone. Freedom of speech does NOT mean your allowed to say anything to anyone anywhere, even the ancient greek knew about the natural limitations of this right. I see a larger picture in here. They have no right to refuse it, because it is an universal right, when they enter the internet zone (which I also pay for - the subscription, club in club ...), they accept it and the Court of Law can ask the provider to close their service if they violate the law… they depend on internet to survive. I didn't say you have the right to say anything as I said in my petition, everything must be framed in debate rules know as worldwide. In Greece, as i know was not about the natural limitation, athenian democracy for example, following the principles: equality of all citizens before the law (isonomia), individual liberty, freedom of speech, participation in government. Plato characterized the scheme as an aristocratic government exercised with the approval of demos. It was a direct democracy, the use of direct voting, but limited to the territory of a city-state and category free men, excluding women, slaves etc... Was society limitations, due the excluding of woman, slaves & so on. Now it is another century I know you thinking in club subscription terms,but I have enough arguments for that one too. [ Edited Fri Dec 04 2009, 01:39PM ] http://www.youtube.com/user/Bonesro http://projectai.wordpress.com/ | ||
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| Telperiar |
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| Registered Member #1 Joined: Sun Jun 15 2008, 04:02PMPosts: 527 | Bonesro wrote ... I see a larger picture in here. They have no right to refuse it, because it is an universal right, when they enter the internet zone (which I also pay for - the subscription, club in club ...), they accept it and the Court of Law can ask the provider to close their service if they violate the law… they depend on internet to survive. First, its NOT you paying for their forum its them. You just pay your own provider for access to the network. Even if their forum was a charged one, its still keeps property of them, granting them rights of authority. Second, unless Acclaim tries to block you OUTSIDE their official forum they do not violate your speech rights. No court would accept your position. You have to understand, freedom of speech comes from publicity. But publicity doesnt depend on the amout of listeners or location of the words. If you start a blog nobody knows and write your opinions there, its public. Doing it in the Washington Post its public as well. Like you having the right not to be offended on your private property, acclaim got this right as well. Imagine somebody coming to your apartment starting to tell you things you dont like to hear. Would you see this as an expression of free speech? But he is free to write a whole book about it, and your also free NOT to read it. But also here applies, freedom of speech ends where personal rights are violated, like unjust accusations and insults. Pretty much retired from MMO gaming due to vast amounts of work. | ||
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| scoobydoo1 |
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  Registered Member #136 Joined: Tue Aug 26 2008, 12:50PMPosts: 1703 | Bonesro wrote ... I see a larger picture in here. They have no right to refuse it, because it is an universal right, when they enter the internet zone (which I also pay for - the subscription, club in club ...), they accept it and the Court of Law can ask the provider to close their service if they violate the law… they depend on internet to survive. hate to burst your bubble Bonesro, but your understanding of that phrase is slightly flawed. * Warning: Incoming Wall Of Text not for the faint hearted ^-^ * allow me to explain  the concept of the internet being an open and public space is fundamentally flawed in the people's understanding of its meaning. The internet is NOT a public and open space as many would like to believe(but this not to say that we will ever stop striving for achieve this goal, but that is a discussion worthy topic for another time perhaps ^-^) The way the internet works is that you "request" information from servers(where all the digital information are held and stored). Servers are always PRIVATELY owned property, be it governmental in nature, personal, and in this case corporately owned. And as such, its not open to debate, not a point of perspective that can be challenged in most(but not all - keyword *winks*) court of law. Forums that reside on these servers are therefore considered as PRIVATE property as well, if you follow the above mentioned nature of how this works. These forums tho open to public, are not entirely free of rules, and as such also not a place where the Freedom Of Speech can exert it moral high ground leverage on the owners of these forums and/or servers where our "digital dialogues and/or contributions" are held. Since we have established the basis of this nature of how the internet operates, we can now move on to the more complex nature of your petition. Information on the internet is considered PRIVATE property as well, since these information has to reside "somewhere", and in this instance, they reside on servers or forums that are hosted on these servers(reminder: that are privately owned) While the contributors to these information may freely give it/them, it is however the right(s) of the owner(s) of these servers(where the information is stored) to choose whether they(the information) are shared with the rest of the world, in this case the internet community or forum community. Online forums are created for the what many would consider as a virtual space for discussions where interest groups can come together and share information and ideas. All forums have rules set by the operators of them, and especially when we have already established that they are "almost always" PRIVATE property and in this case the digital information that has been deposited within. These rules can NOT be superseded by claims or protest for Freedom Of Speech. Freedom Of Speech does not mean anybirdy can impose information(in this case, speech) onto others who are unwilling to hear them, or unwilling to "host" them for others to hear. Blogs are in most instances considered PRIVATE, therefore can be one example of where Freedom Of Speech is "can" thrive, but this is not always the case in other examples which i will not give here. Forums are PRIVATE property, and should always be treated as private property, never as a public free speech zone. Forums require Moderators, moderating, and moderation. This applies to both its members and its operators/admins/mods. Bending the local forum rules in favor of Freedom Of Speech(of topics deemed by its members as discussion worthy) is admirable, but not an absolute must. Using any forums is a privilege, not an entitlement. Bear that in mind. As much as i hate indirectly defending a company like acme, this is something i think you should consider before going ahead any further. Bonesro, you have the right to express yourself, and that is Freedom Of Speech. But do remember that Freedom Of Speech does not allow you to forcefully impose ideas onto others who are unwilling to hear them and/or host these ideas for others to hear. That is a distinct difference. (Future editing may be required to finetune my wall of text post  )* Please do not plagiarize ^-^ * * Goes double for any acme lackey  * [ Edited Fri Dec 04 2009, 06:37PM ] J9D Szechuan Server: ShenMo CS11 SF Nuker, MoShen GB5 HD Healer (Aug 2008 to Nov 2009) Status: Retired (Server Closed) US/EU9D Bardo Server: --Kabuto-- CS9 HD Healer, -Hanabi- GB8 SF Hybrid (Aug 2007 to Aug 2008) Status: Retired (No longer wish to play a defective version of 9Dragons, especially with PARA-SPAMMING AD-BARS with FUNKY DISCO LIGHTS) | ||
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| Bonesro |
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| Registered Member #1090 Joined: Fri Jul 10 2009, 04:20PMPosts: 79 | When you open the Internet... a link can jump in about one billion and half people eyes. If we have awareness of this "possible", we would die suffocated by the weight of thought - or claustrophobia. Internet by definition is a freedom of speech place, at least on of my teacher said so, long time ago and I believe that too (connected with art 169 from DofHR). Now you talk about a newspaper... it is private property, but if they publish something about you that is false for example or even true and you don't agree, you have the right to a reply and they are bind by law to make publish it. Also, let's not forget that you also both raise the problem of author rights. How in the world if the internet is a private place as you may consider, if you publish your thesis or your paper on some of the net posibilities as blog ( what you may consider private ) it is consider public publish and is hold as evidence of copyright in the Court (at least in my country ) ? Internet it is a public media place and was though as a big AGORA, some take advantages, I don't say they don't...yet it is a public place. The only thing considerate private maybe are the mail ( the secret of correspondence that can't be violated). Telperiar you keep telling me acout the subscription and that 9dragons forum is private, well you don't need to be a member to acces it ( to view it ).It is public, everybody can see it, you just need to register to post. It is a difference. quote : * Please do not plagiarize ^-^ * Exactly what I told you.. it is private ?... Private means intimacy... Another thing to let you think about it : "The responsibility belongs exclusively to the text author" And read this (very intersting - Internet of Things) : http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/policy/rfid/documents/commiot2009.pdf PS : correct me if I am wrong, but I think both of you have a tehnical formation (background )...just for info. [ Edited Fri Dec 04 2009, 05:27PM ] http://www.youtube.com/user/Bonesro http://projectai.wordpress.com/ | ||
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| scoobydoo1 |
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| Registered Member #136 Joined: Tue Aug 26 2008, 12:50PMPosts: 1703 | i think you mean that the information found on the internet is open to the public to access, but that by no means should be understood that the internet is a public space. author rights is an entirely different issue here Bonesro... as author of any works, you exercise certain rights on how your material is handled, distributed, modified, represented, etc... but the issue here is that you wish to petition for Freedom Of Speech on a privately operated forum on a privately owned server. EDITS 1: Freedom Of Speech can be interpreted as the freedom to speak your mind and share your ideas... but that should never be used to violate private property and private space. the act of plagiarism or the act to plagiarize is a breach of ethics in a literary sense, the act of not crediting where the source material comes from, via the failure to provide quotes or citations. you may speak your mind and share your ideas, but it should not mean that the Freedom Of Speech allows you to impose your will onto others. am i right? EDITS 2: information posted on the internet may have been freely given and open to the public to access, but there is a distinct difference between the material and the "space" it is stored or hosted in. you are free to choose if you would like to contribute material on the internet which is a public "domain", but it does not equate to you or the public owning these spaces(sites/forums/etc) or the servers that hosts them(sites/forums/etc). Information that is open to the public, but hosted on private property. and as owners of private property, nobirdy can violate their will on how they wish to handle their property. this i'm sure you have a good understanding of. EDITS 3: this is exactly the reason why you do not see pornography sites adverts all over the place especially on privately owned sites or servers. by your definition, the Freedom Of Speech would allow anyone and everyone to post pornography, racially biased text, religiously offending material, snuff pics/vids, etc, all over the place... entirely disregarding everything and everyone to achieve its goal. Freedom Of Speech only works in a public space(to those who are willing to listen) and in your own private space, but never on other's private property. EDITS 4: my final edits (sigh...  )if you find a certain privately own "space" is somehow impeding your freedom of speech... dont go there, dont subject yourself to their whim and fancy... if you wanna "lead" your people to freedom, or to a land where freedom of speech reigns... do so by other means, but violating the rights of private property and private space isnt the way. which is exactly why acme has no say wat so ever here on the load-o-meter forums, and they(acme) can never exercise any form of authority and power "here" if telp doesnt allow it. i hope you can understand some of what i've written, cuz some of the terms used here have complex meanings and not be in a literal sense. [ Edited Fri Dec 04 2009, 06:58PM ] J9D Szechuan Server: ShenMo CS11 SF Nuker, MoShen GB5 HD Healer (Aug 2008 to Nov 2009) Status: Retired (Server Closed) US/EU9D Bardo Server: --Kabuto-- CS9 HD Healer, -Hanabi- GB8 SF Hybrid (Aug 2007 to Aug 2008) Status: Retired (No longer wish to play a defective version of 9Dragons, especially with PARA-SPAMMING AD-BARS with FUNKY DISCO LIGHTS) | ||
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| Kevinrh |
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 Registered Member #487 Joined: Tue Oct 14 2008, 03:27PMPosts: 274 | Can i have a TLDR version of whats going on in here?   | ||
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| Telperiar |
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| Registered Member #1 Joined: Sun Jun 15 2008, 04:02PMPosts: 527 | Bonesro wrote ... When you open the Internet... a link can jump in about one billion and half people eyes. Bones, you dont "open" the Internet, its there all the time, at best you open a browser. And I already explained above, publicity is not defined by the amount of people forming the "public". Bonesro wrote ... How in the world if the internet is a private place as you may consider, if you publish your thesis or your paper on some of the net posibilities as blog Of course the internet is a public place, but you confuse public in general with the a right to do everything everywhere. The World itself is a public place as well, and we all are free people, still we are not allowed go everywhere. Freedom always defines by its limits, theres no absolute freedom. Bonesro wrote ... The only thing considerate private maybe are the mail. Man you have NO idea. I honor fighting for free speech but you completely lost the scope. Listen, free speech and civil rights in the internet are a huge subject these days. But this danger is not coming from a childish and overrated company like ACME. Here in Germany, I am monitoring and discussing this danger since several years already. You consider mail as private as best? Let me shade some light. When ever you Google anything, this action get recorded in a database. You buy something on Ebay, paying with PayPal? These companies got a profile about your preferences, they trade and share these informations. You transfer money from your bank account? This Information goes straight to CIA, even if your NOT American. Like to take a flight for vacation? Same game, including what you ate on the plane, how you paid it, who came with you, what seat you had, your religion ... stored for OPTIMISTIC spoken 15 years. Yet not scared enough? For some countries, every single click you do, gets recorded at stored for at least 6 months. Also time, subject, recipients, keywords of every email you sent or received. Got a cellphone? Say hello to your bugging device, location tracing included. Guess what, all information stored on stock, no suspicion needed. Still with me? Some countries censors the internet actively, and I am not speaking about Iran or China. I speak about countries like Australia or huge parts of Europe. They censor using secret blacklists, compiled by intelligence organizations, far away from law or public control! All of this is happening right now. Its violating human and civilian rights as well as many constitutions. Theres people willing and able to control and connect these databases above, allowing them to control your digital footprint. You can see privacy on the internet is far more than just "mails". You may think your not involved, nobody is interested in your informations? Interest is not necessary in the information age anymore. Take this example: http://blog.jeremybell.com/2009/12/03/so-i-got-arrested-by-the-swat-team-last-night/ This guy got "visit" from a SWAT team for purchasing an Lego(!) toy gun because some guy or software confused "suspicious" activities. So your freedom of speech is indeed in danger, but not from tiny companies like Acclaim. Pretty much retired from MMO gaming due to vast amounts of work. | ||
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| davidjason64 |
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| Registered Member #451 Joined: Tue Sep 30 2008, 06:50PMPosts: 52 | Kevinrh wrote ... Can i have a TLDR version of whats going on in here? It's just Bones doing her level best to be banned from this forum too. | ||
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| scoobydoo1 |
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| Registered Member #136 Joined: Tue Aug 26 2008, 12:50PMPosts: 1703 | @ davidjason64, participating in a discussion and helping our members better understand a subject does not mean they are going to be banned ^-^ discussional topics like these that requires the use of more complex terms like space & place(two words with distinctly different meanings), as well as public and private(where their interaction, definition, and borders with each other often requires more deep thought than many prefer to invest) example: you have a "place" in your heart for love... but can you tell me how much "space" that "place" has? interesting no? ^-^ J9D Szechuan Server: ShenMo CS11 SF Nuker, MoShen GB5 HD Healer (Aug 2008 to Nov 2009) Status: Retired (Server Closed) US/EU9D Bardo Server: --Kabuto-- CS9 HD Healer, -Hanabi- GB8 SF Hybrid (Aug 2007 to Aug 2008) Status: Retired (No longer wish to play a defective version of 9Dragons, especially with PARA-SPAMMING AD-BARS with FUNKY DISCO LIGHTS) | ||
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| Bonesro |
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| Registered Member #1090 Joined: Fri Jul 10 2009, 04:20PMPosts: 79 | davidjason64 wrote ... Kevinrh wrote ... Can i have a TLDR version of whats going on in here? It's just Bones doing her level best to be banned from this forum too. Here I see some people who may actually have another intellectual level than Acclaim guys and I understand why they moved from there, Acclaim is a place where you can't 'grow', those who think are banned and insulted for their intelligence. So, I will conclude : as this world is build on NO. 2 ( dualist interpretation ) we have 2 concepts, 2 polls of opinios. I sow you already said that in this moment it is a large debate about the internet space including the freedom of speech and it is true. Also it is a huge debate about founding a Virtual Court of Law ( because of ideas which I also support, internet as a public place ). quote : So your freedom of speech is indeed in danger, but not from tiny companies like Acclaim. That is exaclty why my petition in this issue is addressed to Acclaim Games Inc. not to a governmental institution. scoobydoo1, obviously, freedom of speech does not exclude controversial even implied and encourages it. Opposition to any and everyone as an expression of freedom, and as long as it is backed by a decent speech, argued it is very welcome, since the clashes of ideas arises implicitly progress. Of course, in a democratic society, no one and nothing in the world will stopped myself, the X Y person to say that white is black, as long as they are of good faith, make logical arguments, serious and, especially, expressed within common sense, without insulting those who believe with their whole being that white is white and black is black. Going further, the societies from real-life are modeled in virtual communities, which is the case of 'Acclame' how you like to call it... Even it is on a (private, but for public to view) Acclaim has no right to restricts the community from freedom of speech, haress the players, force them, to lie them,to introduce a system of justice unequal. If the virtual environment is against the laws, principles of society in real life, they can intervene and correct, they have created it. I think you know better than me that Acclaim has many weaknesses that if you would start a war would certainly sink. PS : Telperiar, internet as a public place in the doctrine of law = internet created a public place... [ Edited Sat Dec 05 2009, 11:45AM ] http://www.youtube.com/user/Bonesro http://projectai.wordpress.com/ | ||
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| Telperiar |
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| Registered Member #1 Joined: Sun Jun 15 2008, 04:02PMPosts: 527 | Bonesro wrote ... quote : So your freedom of speech is indeed in danger, but not from tiny companies like Acclaim. That is exaclty why my petition in this issue is addressed to Acclaim Games Inc. not to a governmental institution. Can you explain me the logic behind this? Are you expecting Acclaim to help you protecting free speech against the governments? Thats like asking a little thief to defeat drug barons for morally reasons. Bonesro wrote ... PS : Telperiar, internet as a public place in the doctrine of law = internet created a public place... I guess i have explained my point wide enough, maybe you need to reread it. You still confuse private platforms with public ones, try to understand the internet like a reflection of the real world. For the same reason you cant sue a newspaper for not printing your article, you cant force Acclaim to accept "unpleasant" post on their forum. And the definition of "unpleasant" does not belong to you. Pretty much retired from MMO gaming due to vast amounts of work. | ||
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| Bonesro |
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| Registered Member #1090 Joined: Fri Jul 10 2009, 04:20PMPosts: 79 | Telperiar wrote ... Bonesro wrote ... quote : So your freedom of speech is indeed in danger, but not from tiny companies like Acclaim. That is exaclty why my petition in this issue is addressed to Acclaim Games Inc. not to a governmental institution. Can you explain me the logic behind this? Are you expecting Acclaim to help you protecting free speech against the governments? Thats like asking a little thief to defeat drug barons for morally reasons. Bonesro wrote ... PS : Telperiar, internet as a public place in the doctrine of law = internet created a public place... I guess i have explained my point wide enough, maybe you need to reread it. You still confuse private platforms with public ones, try to understand the internet like a reflection of the real world. For the same reason you cant sue a newspaper for not printing your article, you cant force Acclaim to accept "unpleasant" post on their forum. And the definition of "unpleasant" does not belong to you. No Telperiar, that is me asking them nice to respect something, If I would wrote a petition, a real one ( actually write from my real name and position) to the gouverment (California one ) would not be so good for Acclaim... I ask them nice without imply the authorities. About the newspaper, you can sue it if they don't publish your reply (about an article wrote about you ). In most of cases we can't compare real life with virtual one, virtual one is a reflection of one and as I said real one can intervene in virtual one to correct it. Telperiar I don't think I confuse private with public at internet level and neither in real life. Let me try explain why : The space in which we live, to which we are attracted, it is in precisely the erosion of life, time and our history, this area which grinds itself in a heterogeneous space. In other words, we do not live in a sort of vacuum, in which individuals might be situations and things. We do not live inside a vacuum that would be colored with different shades and lights, we live within a set of relationships that define the locations to each other and it is absolutely irreducible non superimposable. Jürgen Habermas claims that "with the development of publicity principle", the public sphere (space) was formed by" the critical process in which the individuals using theirs "reason" in public form, found it (the public space) against absolutist rule. But with the expansion of market economy, public sphere is a sphere of social life which substituted "the public use of reason" with "consumption depersonalizat" mass society ". In social space, the interaction between individuals is obvious through the multiple roles that individuals play. The rules are a requirement specific of role, because the rules are governing individual and collective behavior. Social groups tend to spontaneously generate rules whose function is to provide a framework for collective action based on consensus. Roles and rules adopted by individuals is determined by context and human interaction space. For every society the public space is form different and has different means. My vision is that the public space looks more like a clay hill on which you can build all kinds of housing, indeed in the proximity of another, with the possibly of competing with another who aim the same place as you do. But the idea is that we are are not competitive, in a ready-made situation, but in one where the things are even created by competition in which we are engaged. I don't know if you guys are very familiar with law doctrine and social doctrine and their conceptions about internet, but I will try mark some points. The first point to understand the internet space is dedicated to a universal model of internet as "built space" based on dynamics study of the relations between the three main functions of the real life world - the new world, the network world and the "car" ( symbolic... how you move) world. The internet is a public space as a constitutive concept in the opposition's, devoted to private space and to the affected areas of work, productive activities. What this means ? This means that we have areas form by connection at social level between individuals, companies, gouverment and so on. You both make a big confusion between private space of a company in the net and real life. As in real life, the private space of the company is for productive activities and is form by strictly the individuals 'engage' in this process. 9Dragons forum is not that kind of space. Only the government is prohibited from restricting speech. Private corporations are free to censor speech of their employees, but we are not employees. I don't argue that they didn't bough their domain, that they don't pay for internet connection as I do, I just argue with the fact that they are blocking the freedom of speech of the public space form as the consciousness of individuals who contribute to community development and to its building. Also, we have another debate about a more universal public space on the net: the common area.More universal than the public space is the concept of common sphere. "Public" to "common", and even, I may say, community. Common sphere must be understood "as a purely space of relations between the individuals as persons and avatars. Now I want to extand the debate to private dates (privacy) and freedom of speech: why Acclaim as a private company stores our private dates and ask for them ( as e-mail, IP, paymant transaction and ...) ? Out to have some fun till next week... [ Edited Sat Dec 05 2009, 05:47PM ] http://www.youtube.com/user/Bonesro http://projectai.wordpress.com/ | ||
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| margeman2k3 |
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 Registered Member #5 Joined: Mon Jun 16 2008, 01:24AMPosts: 142 | Dear Adrianna, Every time you make a thread like this, I'll kill a kitten. Please think of the kittens! Who's the more foolish: The fool, or the fool who follows him? | ||
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| Satanhas |
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| Registered Member #55 Joined: Thu Jun 26 2008, 11:40AMPosts: 120 | Bonesro wrote ... About the newspaper, you can sue it if they don't publish your reply (about an article wrote about you ). In most of cases we can't compare real life with virtual one, virtual one is a reflection of one and as I said real one can intervene in virtual one to correct it. I dont know where you can sue a newspaper for not publishing a reply. In Sweden that doesnt work a few people tried when they didnt have their reply in a newspaper. All of them failed. You either part of the problem or part of the solution http://help-littleangelina.com/ | ||
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| Gouranga |
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| Registered Member #236 Joined: Mon Sep 01 2008, 02:25PMPosts: 39 | Bones, you confuse positive law with nature. Your arguments are against universal nature reality. Let's make a simplified comparison: The internet is a virtual world, just like thoughts. Only, you need real servers to store information on the internet. Just as you need brains to store thoughts. What you say is that everybody has the right to store information on internet servers, in this comparison that means storing other people's thoughts on your brain. That means people are forced to mind your business. This is however the complete opposite of freedom: Mind your own business. Of course there are a few specific things with the internet. It was developed by the US military and www was invented by CERN, which is funded by European governments, etc. Also as Telperiar said, many governments are trying to control the internet, which they can with positive law. When virtual worlds are controlled, like the internet or thoughts, then there is nothing left of freedom. Bardo: -Gouranga-/Deva Monk/Henan Temple Szechuan: LaoSunTzu/Blue Dragon/NewWorld megadeth/Taishan Bandit/Rebelion | ||
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| scoobydoo1 |
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| Registered Member #136 Joined: Tue Aug 26 2008, 12:50PMPosts: 1703 | the simplest way i can explain this is that... Privately operated forums are NOT free speech zones, and only the operators of said forums are allowed to define the rules that their members have to abide by. Simply being connected to the internet does not make them(forums) a public space even when it can be viewed and accessed by the public. By doing otherwise, would be to violate the basic Property Rights held by the owners. You have to understand the difference between Public space vs Private space, which in essence have a different set of rules that people have to abide by. In order to support your claim of Free Speech on acme forums, you will first have to prove that it(acme's forum) is NOT a private property(which is impossible). And as owners of said private property, their have exclusive authority on what the rules are. As i've said before, if you find that they(acme) are impeding your freedom to speak your mind and opinions... dont go there, dont subject yourself to their whim and fancy. You are trying to advocate for changes to the way acme runs things both ingame and offgame, which doesnt involve the Right to Freedom Of Speech. In the current situation, only acme themselves can choose to make these changes on their own accord, and no amount of pressure from you or the community can force them to IF they(acme) are unwilling to hear you and the community out. Citing the Right to Freedom Of Speech over for something as trivial as getting acme to change is to undermine the essence of which that Right was originally conceived for. I highly recommend you give this more thought and try a different strategy if you still wanna pursue this objective to change the way acme run things. EDITS: the only way for acme to even consider making any changes that you have described in your original petition letter, is to get their attention. And simply by making a lot of noise isnt going to do it. Try to understand these few simple facts about acme. They are a company. And like all companies, they are out to make money. Money is the only language they will ever understand. In order to effect any change to the current situation, you will have to hurt them where it hurts... in their pockets. When they realize that their pockets are being hurt, or if the future prospects of their investments are in jeopardy... They will "try" to listen, they will "try" to change. They WILL do whatever it takes to keep the money flowing. And if all else they try fail, they will recoup their loses by closing that investment. [ Edited Sun Dec 06 2009, 05:54PM ] J9D Szechuan Server: ShenMo CS11 SF Nuker, MoShen GB5 HD Healer (Aug 2008 to Nov 2009) Status: Retired (Server Closed) US/EU9D Bardo Server: --Kabuto-- CS9 HD Healer, -Hanabi- GB8 SF Hybrid (Aug 2007 to Aug 2008) Status: Retired (No longer wish to play a defective version of 9Dragons, especially with PARA-SPAMMING AD-BARS with FUNKY DISCO LIGHTS) | ||
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| margeman2k3 |
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| Registered Member #5 Joined: Mon Jun 16 2008, 01:24AMPosts: 142 | Okay, I'm going to bite... Can anyone cite a source that says that freedom of speech applies to the internet? Please cite an internationally recognized document. If you can't, then please stop arguing that what Acclaim is doing is illegal. [ Edited Mon Dec 07 2009, 03:49AM ] Who's the more foolish: The fool, or the fool who follows him? | ||
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| scoobydoo1 |
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| Registered Member #136 Joined: Tue Aug 26 2008, 12:50PMPosts: 1703 | margeman2k3 wrote ... Can anyone cite a source that says that freedom of speech applies to the internet? Please cite an internationally recognized document. There isnt one... Any Law Student, Practitioner, even Enthusiast can tell you that. J9D Szechuan Server: ShenMo CS11 SF Nuker, MoShen GB5 HD Healer (Aug 2008 to Nov 2009) Status: Retired (Server Closed) US/EU9D Bardo Server: --Kabuto-- CS9 HD Healer, -Hanabi- GB8 SF Hybrid (Aug 2007 to Aug 2008) Status: Retired (No longer wish to play a defective version of 9Dragons, especially with PARA-SPAMMING AD-BARS with FUNKY DISCO LIGHTS) | ||
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